Author Topic: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight  (Read 12492 times)

w44wcf

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Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 06:14:17 AM »
Lars,
Spent a couple of delightful days in the company of John Boy at the Ridgway Rifle club, home of one of the finest NRA Metallic Silhouette Ranges in the USA.....and "Homer" the 1,000 yard steel buffalo (John Boy's passion). Anyway, it gave me the opportunity to test some .45 Colt loads on the steel ram which weights around #55-#60 pounds. From a distance of about 7 yards I tried the following loads:
> .457 round ball - 6.5 grs. / Green Dot (yellow circles on picture below) -
Result - 3 hits in the back did not knock the ram down, so tried one in the top of the horn which did due to its higher leverage point.

> Remington 255 gr. lead bullet - 4.0 grs. / Green Dot (blue circles on picture below)-
Result - 5 hits did not topple the ram. After each impact, the ram did move back a little bit on its stand and was reset for the next shot.

> Remington 255 gr. lead bullet - 7.0 grs. / W231 which is a factory .45 Colt duplication load (red circles on picture below) -
Result - each of the three shots knocked the ram completely off its stand and earthward. A low belly shot would be the most difficult place to knock the ram down and the factory duplication load did it.

I did place one shot of the 255/4.0 G.D. close to the impact of the bullets driven by the factory duplication load to get a better comparison of results which indicate that the same bullet when driven faster does have more pushing power (momentum).



Here's John Boy who witnessed the testing


....and, yours truly......


Sincerely,
w44wcf
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 07:07:30 AM by John Boy »
aka w30wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
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Lars

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Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2008, 10:17:27 AM »
w44wcf,

Congrats on having such nice weather to get out and shoot!!!  I am hoping for something like that tomorrow, sunny and 60Fs -- and that I will indeed be able to get out an shoot. IF SO, maybe I will be able to collect a bit more data myself. Thank you for the results!!

First, a couple of questions. From the pictures, looks as if the impact areas of the 255 grain, pure lead Remington 45 colt bullets have the same appearance with both loads, one sub 400 fps and the other about 800 fps. Even the pure lead round balls seem to have the same appearance. Is that actually the case? Did you find any intact, flattened round balls or 255 grain pure lead bullets on the ground? IF SO, any idea which load any flattened 255 grain bullets came from?

While we have often found flattened ("half dollars") round balls on ground under revolver targets, don't recall that we ever looked for flattened 255 grain Remington bullets. Maybe tomorrow we look for flattened 255 grain Remington bullets. Most folks where we shoot use hard cast bullets and they shatter extensively, almost no matter what the velocity. Part of my interest is knockdown performance of bullets that shatter vs those that do not. My impressions have long been that bullets that shatter on steel plates have less knockdown power than those that do not shatter -- however, I have yet to see any direct comparisons with nearly identical bullet weights and ballistics. The casual comparison has been with lighter bullets at higher velocities and heavier bullets at slower velocities.

The 55 pound ram is a severe test, as it always has been for lighter loads. The steel targets I will use someday may weigh as much but are tall and narrow and hinged at bottom and are the heaviest targets I have seen used in CAS -- I understand that they are more or less standard for some of the more stringent action pistol games. Both the round ball and 255 grain Remington-4,0 grains Green Dot load drop them reliably with hits on the top 20 or so cm. from about 10 meters. These targets are nominally set to fall with hits near the top with 158 grain standard 38 special loads -- standard CAS practice. Generally, 44 cal C&B loads are about like such 38 Special loads. While I have no direct comparisons, other than comparing your results with mine, it would clearly seem that your test is more demanding. IF any of these targets are set up for tomorrow's shoot, hopefully we will be able to stay a while longer and do a little test.

Again, thanks for the test results.
Lars




w44wcf

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Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2008, 01:09:10 PM »
Lars,

As you can tell by our jackets, it was a bit on the cool side (mid 40's) and a bit windy, but a very nice brisk sunny day.   The round balls left a much fainter impression, for the most part than did the 255 gr. bullets.  The 255 gr. Remington's left similar impressions.  One thing of note, these targets have had a number of coats of paint over the years and as such, the paint can be thicker in one area than another depending on previous bullet strikes.

I did find 1 "washer" from a 255 gr. Rem bullet and another "washer" from a round ball. I'll take a pic and post this weekend.

Regrding harder bullets,  a number of years ago I did some up close testing of 250 gr. cast bullets made from w.w.+2% tin on the steel ram.  Velocities ranged from 800 f.p.s. to 1,300 f.p.s.  THey all took the ram down at close range, the noticable difference being that the higher velocity .45 Colt loads took them down faster.

w44wcf 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 01:11:01 PM by w44wcf »
aka w30wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
NRA Life member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .38 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt  Cartridge Historian

w44wcf

  • Free Grazer
Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2008, 05:44:48 AM »
Lars,
Found these two about 3 feet in front of the ram.
Left - 255 gr. Remington / 4.0 / Green Dot; spent weight 90 grs.
Right - 143 gr. Speer Round ball / 6.5 / Green Dot; spent weight 53 grs.

Those were the only two I found.

w44wcf
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 05:52:34 AM by w44wcf »
aka w30wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
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Lars

  • Free Grazer
Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2008, 01:57:54 PM »
w44wcf,

Thanks for the pics! That round ball fragment is much smaller than we used to find from steel plates hit with 44 C&B loads. We did not find any frags from my 255 grain Remington, 4,0 grain Green Dot loads, nor did we expect any given the pattern of fragments hitting the ground under the targets -- I was surprised. There may be still another important variable active here -- at those club ranges where I used 44 C&Bs extensively some years ago and were we kept seeing lead "silver dollars", all the steel plates were angled backwards at bottom and attached by "elastic covered" bolts, all done to reduce back splatter very effectively. Your ram is a heavy, solid target and the plates at range we shot at yesterday are simply hanging, heavy plates -- suspect there is a different behavior of targets when hit, certainly, that 55-60 pound ram is not moving much initially.

Unfortunately, I have no additional data. The large, tall, backward falling (hinged at base) pistol targets are now all being used as shotgun knockdowns that toss clays in various directions (they do a really wonderful job because of their weight!!). For this they are not calibrated with either standard 38 Special 158 grain loads or with a spring gauge. Because of this lack of calibration, I saw no real value in comparing the three revolver loads I used yesterday -- no reliable way to relate results to real CAS shooting conditions.

Had a great day CAS shooting yesterday, lots of nice flying and tossed up clays, as well as swingers and bottle/plate racks and great weather. This is only second time we have shot this year (we only shot once all last year). Both my 255 grain Remington + 4,0 grains Green Dot (328 fps) and 118 grain 0,315 diameter + 11,0 grains weight 777 FFg load (770 fps) in Swedish 7,5 Nagant revolver knocked the bottle rack targets down with finality. That 7,5 Nagant load is nearly identical to 32-20 standard velocity loads in 4,5 inch revolvers from early 1900s, such as Colt New Service and New Police. One miss with shotgun and two with rifle (first time I have shot rifle right handed in about two years, thanks to failing eyesight). Was Stina's best day ever.

Loaded up batch of 255 grain Remington bullets with 5,0 grains of Green Dot in 45 S&W cases -- hope they will group nicely at 50 meters.

Lars


w44wcf

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Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2008, 06:10:24 PM »
Lars,

Glad to hear that you had some decent weather and were able to get out and enjoy a nice shooting experience. ;D

With targets that lean forward, any bullet remnant would be deflected slightly downward and thus hit the ground closer to the target and would tend to be slightly more elongated.

In the situation with a vertical steel target, any bullet remnant would come straight back for a very short distance with the bullet fragmenting over 360 degrees (per the pic of the 300M javelina).

Regarding a hanging or standing target, note that in the pic of the javelina, it has barely started to move after the bullet impact and disintegration.
That would be an indication that there would be no difference in similar weight steel targets.

The same is true with high velocity rifle bullets. My experience with high velocity bullets penetrating steel indicated that it did not seem to make any difference wether the steel plate was suspended or against a solid stop. In both cases, the bullets penetrated the 3/8" steel plate completely...no doubt because the suspended target was perforated in milliseconds before it even had the chance to move.   

w44wcf 





 
aka w30wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
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John Boy

  • Territorial Marshal
Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2008, 06:43:25 PM »
Lars, it was a very interesting test. I bet John a dollar that the RB would take the Ram down - yep, I lost!

Quote
...and "Homer" the 1,000 yard steel buffalo (John Boy's passion).

It was a pleasure to meet my Ole Friend again this year. Shot less at him then in prior periods because I needed silhouette settings for my HiWall

But - did take some time on Homer with MANY misses by inches (tough wind). Here's some 'lucky' hits ... plus did OK with other body hits

The 10" inner circle is a standard NRA 1000yd center and the 20" circle is the standard 10 ring. The black painted holes are from some ignorant YAHO using a 50 cal and military ball ammo sometime this year before I painted the circle
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 06:49:14 PM by John Boy »
Regards
John
SASS ~ Darkside WartHog ~ SBSS (OGB, w/Star) ~ SCORRS
GAF Bvt 1st LT, Atlantic Division Scouts
Devote Convert to BPCR

Lars

  • Free Grazer
Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2008, 08:58:47 PM »
John Boy,

I have always been impressed with round balls from 44 C&Bs. Always shot mine with 35-40 grains of some BP or other in Remington New Army replicas. Often went several matches with no revolver misses, even on plate racks. They still kept knocking down revolver knockdowns intended to foil shooters of wimpy SASS downloads. Don't remember ever leaving a revolver knockdown standing with them or having a spotter complain about not hearing the hits. In 45 Colt and 44-40 our BP round balls loads sure tame the recoil of those revolvers without sacrificing performance on targets. Only for 50-100 yard revolver targets, or 30-40 yard plate/bottle racks, do I switch to standard 45 Colt or 44-40 loads (mostly for POI close to POA). If I was still using those Remingtons, those 50 yard bottles and plates would suffer lots of casualties.

Shot some small critters and a few grouse with 44 C&Bs and they were deadly without messing up much meat. A few of my e-mail buddies used them on small whitetails at 20-40 yards and got oneshot kills with balls through lungs or into neck bones.

Lars


w44wcf

  • Free Grazer
Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2010, 05:17:07 AM »
......Forgot to note, that 45 Colt low-velocity load with 255 grain pure lead bullet was averaging only 328 fps, NOT anything like the 828 fps you use in your posted momentum value (is that value correct, or a typo?).......  
Lars

The measured velocity of Lars load (4 grs. Green Dot / 255 Remington ) was 658 f.p.s. average for 5 rounds from my 7 1/2" Ruger .45 Colt.  
For getting the most accurate velocity readings with slower moving bullets, a blast shield must be used in front of the start screen. Otherwise,
the powder gases will get there before the bullet and give erroneous readings such as Lars experienced.

By comparison, factory .45 Colt ammo averaged 861 f.p.s. from the same revolver.

w44wcf  
aka w30wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
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Lars

  • Free Grazer
Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2010, 07:51:30 AM »
w44wcf,

I wrote longish response but, Internet connection lost. SO, here are salient points.

1) Almost certainly the low velocities I reported earlier ARE NOT result of not using a "blast shield". My preferred means of achieving same freedom from effects of unburned powder, wads, etc. lowering velicity reading is to place chrono at least 3,0 meters, more often  4,0 meters, even 5,0 meters from muzzle. I really dislike "blast shields" -- personal preference.

2) I did rechrono briefly nominally same load in same short-barreled Ruger 45 Colt and got more like 600 fps. Cannot find records at moment, so, is from recall.

3) I was definitely getting low velocities from initial loadings, as noted from long times from "bang" till "clang" at CAS matches.

4) Most likely explanation of low initial velocities is that I actually loaded Blue Dot instead of Green Dot in loads initially chronoed and used at CAS shoots. Re-chronoing occured when developing similar loads for Remington New Army replica C&B with R&D 45 Colt Conversion Cylinder. For that gun I tried initially Blue Dot loads to keep chamber pressures down. I got lots of low velocity loads, all with wide range of chrono reading. I have come to expect this from revolvers with much too wide cylinder-to-barrel gaps, as this one has. I did get suitable load, 255 grain Remington swaged 0,455 bullets over 6,5 grains of Green Dot in 45 Colt cases, for about 700 fps.

Lars

Wills Point Pete

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Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2010, 02:41:09 AM »
 The British used those pure lead bullets at low velocities pretty near all over the world, from Ireland to India and all over Africa, to very good effect. Revolvers like the R. I. C. and the various bulldogs worked just fine, dropping things far more ferocious than steel plates. Velocities, if I remember correctly, seldom went much more than 600fps. Most of the bullets I've seen were rather blunt round nosed. They dropped everyone from Afghans to Zulus, with a few odd leopards and other critters along the way. Seems that every twenty years or so there would be a big push to a smaller, lighter and faster bullet. Today everyone is using the 9x19 but the various special ops types have gone back to the .45, although with a jacketed bullet. Too bad. I don't know why the folks who don't fight in wars make rules that say the bad guy should not be hurt when he's shot. As often as the light fast bullets have failed, you'd think we'd have learned.

 I know this is kind of off the knock down steel topic but then I often carry one of my Colt clones as a car gun. When I do it's loaded with soft lead RNFPs, cast of pure lead with just enough tin to make it cast well, about one part tin to forty parts lead. This is the same bullet I shoot in matches. The spent bullets are usually around the diameter of a quarter to a half dollar dollar after hitting steel.  I had some scrap one inch pine board after a project and stacked six of them, one inch apart like the Army used to do, 'way back when. With 28 grains by weight of Scheutzen ffg the bullet lodged in the fifth board. With 38 grains it sailed through the sixth board and went merrily on it's way into the dirt backstop. The .38 grain load is as much as I can load without having to use my homemade compression die. I have loaded the full forty, and a wad but, tell the truth, all I noticed was a tad more recoil.

 I would submit that a soft lead slug, traveling anywhere between 600 fps and 850-900 fps will do anything I need done with a handgun. If I need anything more than that, well that's what rifles are for.
Wart Hog. Servant of the Soot.

Lars

  • Free Grazer
Re: Knockdown Power VS Bullet Weight
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2010, 07:33:01 AM »
Pete,

Recently we went to 38 Spl/357 Mag Ruger Blackhawk revolvers for CAS and most of our revolver shooting. For CAS and general shooting we use Remington swaged, pure lead, 148 grain HBWC bullets at about 800 fps -- the classical 38 Spl bullseye target load, plus about 100-50 fps. Not only does this load give really small groups (one small irregular hole at CAS pistol target distances) but, it does much better job of taking down the usual plate, bottle and small critter knockdown targets at CAS pistol distances than the usual SASS 38 Special load of 125 grain bullets at 750 fps (Evil Roy's favorite load). We have yet to leave any of these small knock-down targets standing, or even going down slowly. Even on same targets at 35-50 yards (typical rifle targets where we shoot) any center or higher hit with this load drops them.

There are few, if any, more consistantly accurate 38 Special and 32 S&W revolver loads than these soft HBWC loads.

So far, my best grouping 357 Mag loads have been with soft or pure lead bullets, with gas checks for full-velocity loads. Ditto for 44-40, 12,7X44R, and on and on. Nope, no leading, even at 1400 fps, at least with gas checks on or good fiber wad under bullet.

I am finishing off last of my Remington swaged 255 grain, 0,455 bullets in 45 Colt cases and shooting them in Remington New Army C/B with R&D 45 Colt Conversion Cylinder. These bullets are second best grouping to round ball loads in this rather crudely made revolver. Then, I will be done with 45 Colt.


Lars