Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed!

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[John Boy]

Single Shot Rifle Journal -  Jan/Feb 2009 - Vol 62 No 1
Blackhorn 209: A Test-fire Report
by C Rodney James

Bottom Line:
1.   Page 14 of article - See spectrograph of Blackhorn 209 and Hodgdon/IMR Trail Boss
2.   Page 17 of article - See spectrograph compositions of Blackhorn 209 and then compare Trail Boss spectrograph reading on page 14
Summary:
"Haag's findings were that Blackhorn 209, while basically nitrocellulose contained inclusions of potassium nitrite and sulphur, which may create potassium sulphate, possibly sulphur trioxide, or dioxide combining with water in the air form sulfuric acid.  He concluded that there is potassium nitrite and elemental sulphur embedded in what is basically a nitrocellulose product"

And folks - sulfuric acid will corrode and pit your bore ... so, buyer beware.  Blackhorn 209's advertising statement -
 "Noncorrosive" ... Ain't So!

Plus, with Trail Boss having a similar composition ('Blackhorn 209 is very similar to Hodgdon/IMR "Trail Boss" ')... I'd clean my firearms after using it - Immediately!

Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed!

 

Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed!

Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed!

 

Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed!

Blackhorn 209 and Trail Boss Compositions Exposed!

[Fairshake]

Don't think I would want that stuff anywhere around my guns. It does kill me to read that last statement that says it's to be cleaned as fast as corrosive black powder. I have waited a few days after shooting BP and never had a problem. Looks like the subs are not all that great.

[Dutch Bill]

Thank ye kindly John Boy.

I had looked at a small sample of this Blackhorn 209 last summer.  Had a few ounces given to me for a look see.

Western Powder, at that time, claimed it was not a nitrocellulose powder.  So off the wife went to the mall and I quickly converted her kitchen into the Evil Ogre workshop.

First I put some of the Blackhorn 209 into water.  It floated and kept its shape.

Gut feeling.  Headed out back and poured some acetone into a shot glass.  Added some of the Blackhorn 209 and stirred gently with a paper clip.  Formed a slimy mess than finally a viscous solution.  Cast a film on glass.  Dried like a nitrocellulose film but real rough and griity to the fingers.  Put a light to it.  Burned just like smokeless.
Then pulled one of my .223 BTHP rounds for the powder and repeated the acetone thing.  Sure acted like the Blackhorn.

Now this was going on at the height of bicycle season where we were doing 40 to 50 miles a day on the bikes.  So my experimenting time was limited.

Then one day I dumped 500 grains of the Blackhorn 209 into a small bottle of water.  Left it soak for a day and poured the water off on our rest day.  Then started to evaporate it down and dry the powder that had been in the water.
Holy Cow!!  It had suffered a 17% weight loss.  So basically 17% of the Blackhorn was the water-soluble stuff.  But I could not identify what had been leached by the water.  I am used to seeing potassium nitrate crystals form as long needle shaped crystals.  This did not.  It formed little cubes.  If I collected some of this on a piece of wire and put it in a propane torch flame it gave a bright red color.  I had noticed that when I ignited the acetone films cast from the Blackhorn it gave a bright red flame.
So basically I am still puzzled by the thing in the article posted by John Boy that there is potassium and sulfur in the Blackhorn 209.  Course I did not specifically look for sulfur.  I kind thought the water-soluble stuff might be barium nitrate.

A few other gems in that article.
The author states that Hodgdon's Trail Boss powder was developed by ADI in Australia.
I have an audio tape here that dates back about 20 years.  My mate in Oz had interviewed a man from ADI who talked about their contacts with Hodgdon.  Hogdon had approached, at that time, ADI for a deal.  ADI operated a smokeless powder plant they had purchased from duPont way back in WWII.  This gave ADI the right to make the old duPont bulk smokeless.  Which Hodgdon wanted badly at the time.  In turn ADI would get the right to manufacture Pyrodex and sell it in the Pacific Rim countries.  ADI wanted no parts of the deal.  Least of all working with potassium perchlorate.  Secondly if you make bulk smokeless in small amounts it is simply not profitable, in their view.

No go back about 6 or seven years.  Hodgdon powder purchased the old IMR duPont powder plant in Canada that had been run by a Canadian company.  I think a company known as NitroChem.  They had one of the two smokeless powder plants in operation in Canada.  So by purchasing this company in Canada Hodgdon then had the ability to produce whatever smokeless powder they desired. The funny part was that Hodgdon came out with the Trail Boss powder some time after they had purchased the IMR business in Canada.  So the whole sequence of events fit neatly into my aging brain.

Now the author of the article comments on overcompressing loads and the possibility of fracturing grains.
Now most smokeless powder have a small amount of what is known as plasticizer.  The first smokeless powders were described as being horny and brittle.  Meaning brittle and fracturing like cattle horn will.
So this was addressed by adding a small amount of a plasticizer.  For those with little or no industriasl chemistry background I'll explain this plasticizer thing.
If you take a large hammer to a hunk of PVC pipe you can bust it up and shatter it into little pieces.  Then take the same hammer and have a go at a shower curtain.  both are made from a PVC resin.  But the showerr curtain PVC is loaded up with about 60 to 70 parts of plasticizer.  Another example.  PVC pipe compared to the plastic fishing worms.  Both PVC resin but the fishing worms have a whole heap of plasticizer added to the PVC.
Nitrocellulose powders that would not contain a plasticizer have a very low impact shock ignition value.  Add some plasticizer to give the grains a bit of "give" or flexibility and the impact shock ignition value goes up a good bit.  Meaning less sensitive to being set off by a sharp blow under confinement.

Now as I get into this stuff in the propellant industry you see how and why I get the Evil Ogre handle!!

E. Ogre

[John Boy]

Good article, isn't it?   I was kind of hoping that the component percentages would have been identified for each powder from the spectrograph analysis

Bill, when I saw the ADI name, I did some Goggling. 
... ADI Limited no longer exists.  It became incorporated as Thales Australia ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Defence_Industries
... Then Thales Australia commenced operations as the Tenix Group ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Defence_Industries
... Further, Tenix Group (Tenix Defense) was bought out in January 2008 by BAE Systems Australia ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Australia
Based on all these buyouts/mergers that don't identify explosives as a product line and your identification of the IMR Canadian purchase - I'm guessing that Trail Boss is a Canadian made product too

Couple of side notes:
1.  I called IMR a couple of days ago looking for the burn rate of Trail Boss which was not on the Burn Rate Table that I have.  I talked to Technical Support and their answer was; "It's kind of between Green Dot and International"    kind of like?  I asked, what do you mean kind of like, isn't it smokeless powder?  I got a 2 step to this question.  Then when I read the Single Shot Journal article today ... the 'kind of reply' was clearly evident - it ain't the real deal smokeless powder and in addition it's corrosive!  Spectrograph analyses don't lie unless the glass vials have contaminated carrier solution or the vials are not perfectly wiped clean - from my old experiences working in the Ciba‑Geigy organic products lab in Toms River.  If the article's author's friend had access to a gas chromatogram, the component outputs would have been finitely defined

2.  If you or anyone wants the jpg pages that I posted to be printed in normal text (8.5" x 11") pages, do the following:
Right mouse click on each jpg > Click on Save Image As > Save it on your computer > Then open the jpg > Go to File on the Task Bar > Print ... or if the jpg opens using a photo software on your computer - just hit Print.  You'll have full size text pages

Was it Mick that penned you with the Evil Ogre handle?

[Ranch 13]

 When trailboss was young, there's a couple of burnrate charts had it pegged at between reddot, and bullseye. Hogdons/IMR have always warned about not crushing or bustin them lil donuts as the burn rate will change drastically and beings that it already runs the ragged edge pressure wise with maximum charges.........
 I've shot quite a bit of it, don't think its a safe powder for rifle cartridges at all, fine for handguns and rifles chambered for the same size rounds. Never noticed any corrosion problems with it.

[John Boy]

Don, IMR has loading data for rifle loads though there is none for the 45 Colt.  The pistol load data for 45's would be Ok in a rifle.  The pressure in a 7.5" barrel with 250gr bullets is 12,700.  I'm going to use it for 25-20 downloaded gallery loads - 2.5gr for starters and then some 2.0gr loads for comparisons

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

[Bat Masterson]

OK, I understand the duplex qualities of Blackhorn 209 and that its no cleaner than BP or the other substitutes.  What I don't find here is any information about Trail Boss.  Is the article somehow saying that TB is corrosive by it's self or just that the nitrocellulose base for B209 is similar to TB?

Happy Trails
Bat

[Fairshake]

John Boy, I loaded alot of 45 Colt with traiboss when it first came out. It does fill the case and stops the fear of a dble charge as stated. I never found the sweet spot with it though. I also had a problem with flat primers with a load that was well with in bounds of a safe load. That worried me and I stopped loading it. Right after that happened to me I read where some were having severe problems with reduced loadings. That conviced me to give up on this powder as I have nothing but my eye and years of loading to see the signs of high pressure. Be careful

[John Boy]

Bat - read the corrosive text about Blackhorn in the article.  Then look at the spectrograph.  At the end of the article, read the components in Blackhorn and then form your own conclusion

[Ranch 13]

 John I'm sort of like Fairshake, I shot an awful lot of it in the 45 colt, along with the3840, 41mag,44 spec, and 44 mag. Shoots well enough for the gangbangin steel at a CAS match, but never could find anything I'ld call accurate. Shot a few out of the trapper in 45 colt, but that trapper is a somewhat peculiar gun in that it either loves a load or hates it. It hated Trailboss,even with its very favorite bullets.
 The stuff really does well in the 32 h&r. (2.8 grs)
 I'ld imagine that the 2 grs would be a dang good place to start with the 25-20, I'll have to dig up an empty and have a looksee.

[Dutch Bill]

Bill,

Was it Mick that penned you with the Evil Ogre handle?

John Boy,

My shooting buddy Dr. Bill gave me the Mad Monk handle.
But then as I got into dealing with the different people in the powder business we joked that one day I would be the Oracle and the next day the Ogre.

Once the Schuetzen powder development was in hand I had sort of worked myself of the field.  So that sort of ended the Oracle aspect of the hobby.  Leaving me simply as the Ogre.  To more than a few in the business I am the Evil Ogre.  I don't buy some of their BS.  Can't be bought and God help them if they threaten me.  The last powder company that threatened me lost around 10 million as a result.  I used to joke with the engineers at OxyChem I worked with.  I may be easy but nobody ever called me cheap!

E. Ogre

[Dutch Bill]

OK, I understand the duplex qualities of Blackhorn 209 and that its no cleaner than BP or the other substitutes.  What I don't find here is any information about Trail Boss.  Is the article somehow saying that TB is corrosive by it's self or just that the nitrocellulose base for B209 is similar to TB?

Happy Trails
Bat

Bat,

The author is saying that both are nitrocellulose based but that the Blackhorn 209 has the additives that makes its residue corrosive.


E. Ogre

[Dutch Bill]

Good article, isn't it?   I was kind of hoping that the component percentages would have been identified for each powder from the spectrograph analysis

John Boy,

When I worked at OxyChem I sometimes worked up in the main research laboratory.  Now since I had but a high school diploma and was weighted down with a URW membership card I was not alloed to touich the Infra Red Spectrophotometer nor the GCMS equipment.  But by 1985 the IR machines were relegated to collecting dust.
Now the spectro graph in the article sure looks like one off the infra red machine.  Trouble with those machines is that you need a very large library of known curves.  And if you do identify a unknown with it you really should run a control sample of the same chemical in a pure for just to verify.  What I see in the graph is simply two nitrocellulose powder with similar chemistry as to the nitrocellulose.

Now visually I looked at the crystals formed from what I had gotten with the water extraction.  Little clear cubes.  This gave the flame from the burning powder a very bright red color.  Potassium nitrate gives a violet flame and its crystals are clear but needle shaped.


BUT!!!

Nice long hike through the snow in Lehigh Gorge todday.  mentally refreshed.

So I sat down with my copy of:
The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives
Tenny L. Davis
Volumes 1 & 2
Angriff Press

Section on smokeless powder, Bulk Powder

Three typical bulk powders

Nitrocellulose --------------------------------------------------------------- 84.0 --------------------- 87.0 -------------------- 89.0
%N in nitrocellulose ------------------------------------------------------ 13.15 ------------------- 12.90 ------------------ 12.90
Potassium nitrate ---------------------------------------------------------   7.5 ---------------------   6.0 -------------------   6.0
Barium nitrate  -------------------------------------------------------------   7.5 ---------------------   2.0 --------------------  3.0
Starch -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  1.0
Paraffin oil -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   4.0 --------------------------
Diphenylamine --------------------------------------------------------------- 1.0 ----------------------  1.0 --------------------- 1.0


Now when I did the water extraction I got a 17% weight loss.  In the formulas above you see 15% as the highest imorganic nitrate content and 8.0% as the lowest.

So if the Blackhorn 209 was similar to the first powder it could be that I was looking at a mixture of both barium and potassium nitrate in the powder.

I get the idea they just re-invented an old wheel.

E. Ogre

[Dutch Bill]

This thread stuck in my mind as it worked its way into past hisory.

Now this Blackhorn209 s  modified smokeless powder made in Cnada.

Today I went into the ITS Dataweb.

In the year 2008 the U.S. imported 5,785,080 pounds of propellant powders from Canada with a total value of
$40,304,588.
This most likely represents both military and civilian use powders.  And all of that came out of two plants in Canada.

E. Ogre