Author Topic: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP  (Read 9546 times)

Savvy Jack

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Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« on: April 07, 2010, 05:20:37 PM »
I have an Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt with a 45 ACP cylinder. If the revolver is only to use SAAMI max 14,000psi for the 45 colt, whats the deal with the 45 ACP pressures? Those pressures must be at least 20,000 for Wal Mart Winchester Target loads? In Lymans relaoding manual most reloads looks to be between 15,000 and 18,000 psi.

I mic'ed the cylinders and came up with these numbers

45 Colt
OAL 1.621
DIA 1.671
Outside Wall - .068-.070
Chamber to Chamber Wall .041-.042
Chamber DIA - .485

45 ACP Cyl
OAL 1.619
DIA 1.671
Outside Wall - .068-.070
Chamber to Chamber Wall .044-.046
Chamber DIA - .480

The 45 ACP cylinder is basically a 45 Colt cylinder but with the chamber not fully reamed through. The lip inside the chamber keeps the ACP cartridge from falling through. The cartridge rim on the ACP serves no purpose with the cylinder.

Thoughts?

Lars

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 06:07:26 PM »
Jack,

Does Users Manual, etc. state that ONLY standard 45 Colt ammo or standard 45 ACP ammo is to be used? IF SO, then I would say you are looking at "lawyer CYA" speak, that has no basis in actual chamber pressures.

Lars

Savvy Jack

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 06:46:11 PM »
Sorry, no manual.

Taylor's Catalog number #700AX 45LC/45ACP   Guess I need to call them. I called Uberti and waiting for a reply!

Lars

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 07:18:02 PM »
Jack,

Cimmarron Firearms website has User Manuals that can be downloaded. No distinction in content of manual for any calibers. Cimmarron also lists 45 Colt/ 45ACP dual cylinder models. Presume their Colt replicas are made by Uberti. Not really much in their manuals, save for following widespread boilerplate about ammo. Might be that 45 ACP cylinder has different heat treatment than 45 Colt cylinder, but, I would guess that it does not.  

AMMUNITION
-Use only commercially manufactured ammunition which pressure cannot
be higher than the ones stated by S.A.A.M.l. or C.I.P.
- Your gun has been designed for ammunition of a specific caliber - do
not alter the barrel, chamber, caliber for which your gun was designed.
Be sure you never mix ammunition.
- Use only ammunition specifically recommended for your firearm.
(Proper Ammunition specified on barrel and cylinder).
- The use of reloaded Ammunition voids the warranty.

Hope this gives you good enough answer, at least for present.

Lars
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 07:20:10 PM by Lars »

Pettifogger

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 09:54:36 PM »
The guns are made for .357 and other rounds with more pressure than the .45 Colt.  Bottom line is EVERY manufacturer is going to tell you to only use SAAMI spec ammo.  Every manufacturer will tell you in their manuals to use only factory loaded ammo.  Period, end of story.  They have to for product liability purposes.  They wouldn't sell you a .45 ACP cylinder if it was not safe for factory loaded SAAMI spec ammo.

Savvy Jack

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 06:57:18 AM »
The guns are made for .357 and other rounds with more pressure than the .45 Colt.  Bottom line is EVERY manufacturer is going to tell you to only use SAAMI spec ammo.  Every manufacturer will tell you in their manuals to use only factory loaded ammo.  Period, end of story.  They have to for product liability purposes.  They wouldn't sell you a .45 ACP cylinder if it was not safe for factory loaded SAAMI spec ammo.

I can understand a 357 since the cylinder walls are much thicker than the 45 Colt or 44-40. It would appear, in photos, that the cylinder wall fails long before the frame structure! And then there is the 44-40 cylinder wall thickness....thicker than the 45 Colt AND 45 ACP.

Just looking for facts!

Pettifogger

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 11:41:02 AM »
Here's a fact.  Colt, USFA, Uberti, Pietta and others have been making SAA's with .45 ACP cylinders for decades.  Do you seriously think they would be selling them if they blew up every time someone pulled the trigger?  The reason .45 LC ammo is loaded to such modest pressures is that a lot of people are still shooting black powder era original Colts and the factories can't safely load higher pressure ammo.  I still have several boxes of old "Hi-Velocity" .38-40 and .44-40 rounds.  People apparently couldn't read the boxes that the ammo was only for Model 92 Winchesters and NOT to be used in Model 73s.  Unfortunately almost everything made in this litigious country has to be made to the lowest common denominator.  Your modern made single action will handle SAAMI spec .45 ACP with no problem.  I've got several.  Of course I don't shoot the evil smokeless powder and the .45 ACP's work great for a reduced power BP load.

Lars

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 11:48:15 AM »
Guestion to anyone,

Have Itallian replica 1873 Colts gotten stronger in recent years? IF one considers SAMMI for 45 Colt to be 14.000 psi and assuming that those guns were proofed in Itallian proof houses for 1,5X service pressure, then for 45 Colt proof pressure would have been 14.000 + 7.000 = 21.000 psi. Assuming 20.000 psi service for 45ACP, then proof pressure would have been something like 27.000 psi. SO, unless those 45 ACP cylinders are made of different alloy and/or heat treated differently than 45 Colt cylinders, then those 45 Colt cylinders would seem much stronger than proofed for.

Of course, none of that would change lawyer's insistance on boilerplate clause about "only using SAAMI standards factory ammo in caliber stamped on barrel and cylinder".

On a different note, all the folks I know of that bought Rugers with 45 Colt and 45ACP cylinders, found distinctly smaller groups with 45 Colt ammo. Obvious cause would be the smaller bullets and generally smaller bores, 0,451 of 45ACP vs 0,454 of 45 Colt. What are more sizes of these Uberti-made dual cylinder revolvers?

Thanks,
Lars

Savvy Jack

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 01:19:49 PM »
Here's a fact.  Colt, USFA, Uberti, Pietta and others have been making SAA's with .45 ACP cylinders for decades.  Do you seriously think they would be selling them if they blew up every time someone pulled the trigger?  The reason .45 LC ammo is loaded to such modest pressures is that a lot of people are still shooting black powder era original Colts and the factories can't safely load higher pressure ammo.  I still have several boxes of old "Hi-Velocity" .38-40 and .44-40 rounds.  People apparently couldn't read the boxes that the ammo was only for Model 92 Winchesters and NOT to be used in Model 73s.  Unfortunately almost everything made in this litigious country has to be made to the lowest common denominator.  Your modern made single action will handle SAAMI spec .45 ACP with no problem.  I've got several.  Of course I don't shoot the evil smokeless powder and the .45 ACP's work great for a reduced power BP load.

lol, yeap..I know what ya mean by the smokeless stuff!!!

Nah, never have feared it would blow up. If the Uberti can shoot 45ACPs in the same cylinder as the 45 Colt, then the 45 Colt and 44-40 cylinders should be able to handle more pressures as well....and is my point which is the opposite of thinking they can not handle higher loads!!!!! The 44-40 cylinder has thicker walls than the 45 Colt and 45ACP cylinders. I would doubt seriously the 44-40 cylinders are made from different stock than the 45 Colt or evenb the 45 ACP.

With that said this does not mean I am going to make a 44 magnum outta the 45 or 44-40. Just wanting FACTS about pressures in the replicas.

Savvy Jack

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 01:46:17 PM »
Guestion to anyone,

Have Itallian replica 1873 Colts gotten stronger in recent years? IF one considers SAMMI for 45 Colt to be 14.000 psi and assuming that those guns were proofed in Itallian proof houses for 1,5X service pressure, then for 45 Colt proof pressure would have been 14.000 + 7.000 = 21.000 psi. Assuming 20.000 psi service for 45ACP, then proof pressure would have been something like 27.000 psi. SO, unless those 45 ACP cylinders are made of different alloy and/or heat treated differently than 45 Colt cylinders, then those 45 Colt cylinders would seem much stronger than proofed for.

Of course, none of that would change lawyer's insistance on boilerplate clause about "only using SAAMI standards factory ammo in caliber stamped on barrel and cylinder".

Good info!!

On a different note, all the folks I know of that bought Rugers with 45 Colt and 45ACP cylinders, found distinctly smaller groups with 45 Colt ammo. Obvious cause would be the smaller bullets and generally smaller bores, 0,451 of 45ACP vs 0,454 of 45 Colt. What are more sizes of these Uberti-made dual cylinder revolvers?

Thanks,
Lars


I shot the 45 ACP today and got better groups than with the 45 Colt ammo. At 40 feet I had a 2 1/2 group. Not the gun's fault, I was not trying to group....was just after velocity at the time. I was too lazy to take the table and chair out into the pasture where I shoot!

Today I used Winchester Target ammo #USA45ACP 230gr.

Springfield XD 45 ACP - 796fps - 323ft lbs of energy
Uberti Cattleman 5.5 barrel - 854fps - 372ft lbs of enery

Thats a pretty low end cartridge for an ACP....I guess!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 01:58:11 PM by Savvy Jack »

Lars

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 07:16:51 AM »
Morning Jack!

Following is potentially irrelevant comment. A couple of years ago I shot a 45ACP chambered 1911-type handgun and was surprised at the much lower recoil than I remembered from decades ago with military surplus ammo. Ammo used recently was commercial practice ammo for LEOs. Did not even bother my old, now quite recoil-sensitive hands.

Would be interesting to know what bore diameter is for your Uberti 45 caliber barrel. Those Ruger dual cylinder revolvers supposed all have barrels with 45 Colt groove-to-groove diameters, not the smaller diameters standard for 45 ACP.

Lars

Savvy Jack

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 08:34:44 AM »
Morning Jack!

Following is potentially irrelevant comment. A couple of years ago I shot a 45ACP chambered 1911-type handgun and was surprised at the much lower recoil than I remembered from decades ago with military surplus ammo. Ammo used recently was commercial practice ammo for LEOs. Did not even bother my old, now quite recoil-sensitive hands.

Would be interesting to know what bore diameter is for your Uberti 45 caliber barrel. Those Ruger dual cylinder revolvers supposed all have barrels with 45 Colt groove-to-groove diameters, not the smaller diameters standard for 45 ACP.

Lars

Land - 443
Groove - 450

BTW I read where the 230gr 45 ACP was designed to produce 850fps from the 1911. It made 854fps from my Uberti 5.5 Cattleman. Only slightly better than the 45 Colt reloads I have with TightGroup. Its actually my dads revolver so I don't use BP in it. I like to shoot it and give it back to him dirty. Told him I don't clean the heathen smokeless...lol
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 09:04:14 AM by Savvy Jack »

Pettifogger

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 11:38:06 AM »
Morning Jack!

Following is potentially irrelevant comment. A couple of years ago I shot a 45ACP chambered 1911-type handgun and was surprised at the much lower recoil than I remembered from decades ago with military surplus ammo. Ammo used recently was commercial practice ammo for LEOs. Did not even bother my old, now quite recoil-sensitive hands.

Would be interesting to know what bore diameter is for your Uberti 45 caliber barrel. Those Ruger dual cylinder revolvers supposed all have barrels with 45 Colt groove-to-groove diameters, not the smaller diameters standard for 45 ACP.

Lars

Original Colts were .454.  .45 ACP was .452.  Since WWII everyone has standardized on .452 so the bores are the same on the Ruger guns.

Lars

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 12:09:15 PM »
Now that I no longer have any Ruger 45 Colts, I don't have any bore dimension data for it. However, I always bought 0,454 to 0,457 diameter soft lead bullets/balls for my smallest grouping BP and nitro loads in that Ruger. 0,452s just did not shoot as well as 0,454s, for whatever reason, with one striking exception, some 300 grainers loaded over plenty of H110. Could have been other reasons, such as the common oversize Ruger 45 Colt chambers, etc.

I always thought that any nominal 0,452 bores on 45 Colts had as much to do with size of widely available 45 Colt mantled bullets as with any manufacturing benefits -- compare with existence of 0,357 and 0,355 for "38s" and 9mm.

Now that cheap military surplus ammo is scarce, or less, I wonder just what is appeal of dual cylinder 45 Colt/45ACP? If one wants to load a smaller case than 45 Colt, 45 S&W has long been available and works really well for this. Of course, folks having a bunch of 45ACPs and loading tools, etc., 45ACP in revolver would make lots of sense.

Lars

Savvy Jack

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Re: Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt/45 ACP
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 01:27:51 PM »
Wife wants to get a 45ACP Springfield XD. Box of 100 45ACP was $35. I am happy with that!