Author Topic: wads in 45-70 loads  (Read 2028 times)

Tater Pickens

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  • B 2/5 1st Cav 1965-1966
wads in 45-70 loads
« on: March 31, 2012, 09:46:32 PM »
I have had it mentioned in several recent post about the use of a wad over the compressed charge of BP in my 45-70 loads. Can anyone tell me what purpose the wad serves?

Does it help in keeping the fouling down? The reason I ask is because I have been trying several different loads in my 45-70 trapdoor rifle to over come a couple of problems-one of which was not being able to close the breech easily after the first round was fired. I overcame this problem by seating the bullet a little deeper and even trying a different bullet with a more tapered ogive. This also helped with the closing of the breech problem. What I am now experiencing is after about the 8 or 9th rounds my accuracy begins to go to hell. I am shooting 70 grns precompressed 2F schutzen but without a wad with a .458 bullet. I don't know what bp lube slim provides on these bullets but I am wondering if it is adequate for my rifle barrell or if the absence of a wad has any bearing on my accuracy problem.

What do you guys think?

Tater Pickens

Ranch 13

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Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2012, 09:34:41 AM »
A .030 fiber wad will help keep the fouling down and will help seal the bore to keep the powder from blowing by the bullet.
 If you're gettting 8-10 rounds that's not to bad. You may want to try a .460 diameter bullet.
What bullet style are you currently shooting?
Eat more BEEF the west wasn't won on a salad.
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Fairshake

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Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2012, 10:05:50 AM »
As Ranch posted you may want to try a larger diameter bullet or a different bullet all together.
The 535 Postell design has given me great results in three 45-70 rifles. I use the .030 wad that Don referred to and also anneal my case mouths before each firing.
Try looking on Sage outfitters web site for bullets and lube.
I see where we discussed this some in your seating of the 535 bullet but I don't know which bullet you have or the lube being used.
Both could be at fault. The heavier bullets with a good BP lube will stack them in there shot after shot.
Your location may even be a problem.
Do you blow tube or run a patch after your rounds?
Your powder brand is usually a good one. May need to also try a different powder as each gun is different.
The fouling at the end of a barrel indicates a lube failure, and at the chamber area it tells you about bad sealing problems.
I'm not saying you don't already know these things but just trying to maybe say something that may spark an idea on your part as long distance figuring out problems is a lot of luck involved. Later David
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 10:27:44 AM by Fairshake »
Lord of Soot, Sass 81802, NRA, BOLD, Deadwood Marshal, Border Vigilante, Warthog  So That His place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat

Tater Pickens

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  • B 2/5 1st Cav 1965-1966
Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2012, 01:33:36 PM »
Fairshake and Ranch, The bullets that I am using at the moment are the last of the 535 postell that I had gotten from S Slim. You may recall that this was the one that the ogive was too broad creating my initial problem of not being able to close the breech easily after the 1st round. What I did was to seat the remaining bullets deeper until I could close the breech after each shot. My OAL was about 2.60. After I had mentioned my problem to Slim he sent me some 485 grn bullets that had a narrower ogive and I set these at OAL of 2.79 with no problem of closing the breech. Both of these were .458's in that when I slugged the bore I got .457.

Where I am at this moment is I have emailed MBW for their input on the SAECO 645 which had been suggested to me and may look at the 457132 postell or SAECO 745.

I also have on order from Buffalo Arms some Walter .030 fiber wads.

Looking at the Sage Outfitters site they show a price of $39.99 sized to .459 but it doesn't say if that is per 50 or 100.

Montana Bullet Works shows $25.50 for 50 and sized to .459. I can't find at either web site what BP lube they use. I have had experience with SPG in the past which seems to be a good BP lube.

I don't know what lube Slim uses.

I don't  use a blow tube or run a patch through after each round.I am shooting in Georgia where the humidity is fairly high. As I mentioned before I am not shooting for competition or hunting but am searching for something approximating what the troops used back in the 1880's when the trapdoor was their weapon and I am sure when fighting off maurading indians they did not use a blow tube or run a patch after each shot.

Mt Baldy also offers bullets for the 45-70. Have ya'll ever tried any of their bullets?

Thank you both for your envaluable input and suggestions.

Tater

Ranch 13

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Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 01:43:27 PM »
 The saeco 645 is an excellent bullet in the 45-70.
 Another bullet that might be worth looking at in your trapdoor is the 457124 from Lyman.
 
Eat more BEEF the west wasn't won on a salad.
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John Boy

  • Territorial Marshal
Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 07:22:22 PM »
Tater, the Postell's price at Sage is for 50 bullets, 1:20 alloy, match weight sorted and lubed with SPG

OK, wads.  The kinds used are like Chevy's Chrysler's and Ford's ... wax paper, fiber, cork, cardboard, LDPE plastic, etc and my choice usually - dry felt.   In addition, some BPCR shooters seat the bullets longer outside the case and don't grease the 1st GG.  This provides for the driving band and empty 1st GG to be used as a scraper of the foul when shot

Foul can be your friend or foe.  The important key is to keep the foul as moist and soft as possible.  Using a grease cookie will help this to happen but a good lube and sufficient bore lubrication will do the same

Add to the equation to keep fouling down and soft, some bullets do this better than others.  Especially those with wide GG bands and I'm not talking about Big Lube bullets design
Regards
John
SASS ~ Darkside WartHog ~ SBSS (OGB, w/Star) ~ SCORRS
GAF Bvt 1st LT, Atlantic Division Scouts
Devote Convert to BPCR

Ranch 13

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Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 07:35:10 PM »
John I believe those sage bullets would be lubed with their own Alox lube.
Eat more BEEF the west wasn't won on a salad.
http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

Tater Pickens

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  • B 2/5 1st Cav 1965-1966
Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 08:41:10 PM »
Gentlemen, I received a response from Dave at MBW and he states that the traditional bullets for the trapdoor is the 385 RN(shown as the Lyman 457124 on his site) and the Saeco 500 RN(shown as the Saeco 881 on his site). He says these are good bullets if I have a twist rate adequate enough to stabilize the bullet. I have no idea what that means. All I know is that I have an original 1884 trapdoor rifle, manufactured in 1889 and that the Spence Wolf book says that in about 1881 the standard bullet for the rifle went from the 405 grn to the 500(carbines stayed at 405 with a reduced charge of 55 grns however). He says he uses a lube called DGL.

I am at the point where this is getting confusingner and confusingner and probably what I will do is just order up some 385's, Saeco 645's and 500's and see if any of them work for me and my rifle.

Tater

Ranch 13

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Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 09:23:36 PM »
Your rifle will handle all of those bullets you listed.
DGL=Dang Good Lube, and it is.
Eat more BEEF the west wasn't won on a salad.
http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

John Boy

  • Territorial Marshal
Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 06:51:28 AM »
Don, Bingo ...
Quote
We use Sagebrush Alox Lube, which we believe is the best lube available.
Regards
John
SASS ~ Darkside WartHog ~ SBSS (OGB, w/Star) ~ SCORRS
GAF Bvt 1st LT, Atlantic Division Scouts
Devote Convert to BPCR

Tater Pickens

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  • B 2/5 1st Cav 1965-1966
Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2012, 02:06:57 PM »
It has been suggested here that I may try a larger bullet such as the 458 or 460. I have an expander plug from Buffalo arms that says .458 to .461 scribed on the top. Would that work to expand for a .459 or would i need to get one that says .459 to .461/

Thanks,

Tater

Ranch 13

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Re: wads in 45-70 loads
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 03:11:30 PM »
That plug will work fine.
Eat more BEEF the west wasn't won on a salad.
http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php